Opinions on faith and life

Synthesis

2009-08-12

I just wanted to highlight a link I just added, called What Is the Hegelian Dialectic?. I see this tactic played out constantly, in all spheres of modern life, especially in the churches. Many think it’s the Holy Spirit behind movements such as the Purpose Driven courses, but holy has nothing to do with it. It is a diabolical plan toward an evil goal, and its power lies in its chameleon-like ability to blend in with any and every philosophy. It has saturated all the world’s governments, schools, and religions. Read the article there and then keep it in mind as you read the news or listen to sermons, and especially in the internet dialogs.

Know your enemy.

57 Comments

Junkster

From the site references: If the ideas, interpretations of experiences, and the sources are all wrong, can a conclusion based on all these wrong premises be sound? The answer is no. Two false premises do not make a sound conclusion even if the argument follows the formula. Three, four, five, or six false premises do not all combine to make a conclusion sound. You must have at least one sound premise to reach a sound conclusion. Logical mathematical formulas are only the basis for deductive reasoning. Equally important is knowledge of semantics, or considering the meanings of the words used in the argument. Just because an argument fits the formula, it does not necessarily make the conclusion sound.

Exactly. Thanks for the link.

Lin

I was introduced to Hegal in a experiential way when I went to work for an Academician who was a devotee of Hegal. Even studying him in Germany!

Another aspect of Hegal (Early Nazi party "philosophers" used Hegalian dialectic) is the promotion of state education to foster a uniform "moral" society.

And this man’s idea of brainstorming was to throw out 2 false premises (no one dared say they were false) to brainstorm and reach consensus. The result was much time spent trying to make them fit an outcome that would work. They rarely did.

(William Shirer, in the Rise and Fall of Nazi Germany, outlines how the Early Nazi party "philosophers" used the Hegalian dialectic to win over the people)

Lin

I want to point out a dialectic that is going on right now. We are told there is a health care "crisis" and folks believe that and are lining up on sides.

Is there a health care crisis? Sure there are problems but must a whole system be scrapped?

The folks who are telling us there is a health care crisis are framing the dialetic. They are starting with perhaps a false premise. Let’s stop and define the situation. What is a crisis? Why are so many Canadians coming here for health care if there is a crisis? Are the problems we have now caused by regulation, etc. Are illegals using our system and overloading it? Are they non payers? Could we deal with our system in helping the 25% who are not insured?

If we do not define what constitutes a crisis, then we go on to a false conclusion assuming there is a crisis.

And because we are lining up on sides, the real problems cannot be fixed.

In reality, the ’crisis’ talk is an attempt to takeover the industry and have people more dependent on government. For a reason.

Junkster

Lin, You are so right. When you understand the purpose and tactics of the Hegelian Dialectic, it becomes so obvious what is going on with the current health care debate. The left claims there is a crisis and proposes a radical change to fix the health care system, (thesis) and the right responds with its own proposal on how to "fix" the problem (antithesis), and the end result is a compromise that incorporates some of the ideas of each side (synthesis) -- with the end result that we move toward the ultimate socialist goals of the left. Both sides consider it a given that the right action is an eventual compromise, while no one bothers to question whether one side may actually be totally right and the other totally wrong, or that both sides may be wrong. The underlying assumption of our entire political process has become that the truth is somewhere in the middle (a "centrist" view) -- when, in reality, if one or both sides have a faulty premise, the truth cannot possibly be somewhere in between.

Paula Fether

And it’s what is going on in all religions, too. Remember denominations and sects? Now they’re either dissolving or melding together. Coincidence? Move of the Spirit? Or dialectic?

The SBC is a prime example. At first there was autonomy and unity, then factions, then brawls, and now the whole thing is falling apart. And it is being replaced with something that is neither Baptist nor even Christian.

Christiane

Paula dear, please reconsider concerning Wade’s blog. He is trying to work on behalf of women in the Church also. We need you very much. I cannot speak for him, but I know you are very much needed. Love you dearly, L’s

Paula Fether

Christiane,

Wade has turned his back on the gospel and is promoting a "Jesus" that cannot save. Would you and he actually say that the atheist Lydia mentioned is SAVED because of his love and good deeds? On what basis would you say he is not?

I have quoted many scriptures on how GOD defines a Christian, and it is all about FAITH in Jesus ALONE. Jesus said "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life; no one comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME". That is narrow and negative, but Jesus said it. It is HIM that people are rejecting!

No one is saying that love is unimportant in the life of a Christian, ref. 1 Cor. 13. What we are saying is that love is not what saves. A person must have faith in Jesus ALONE or all the love and care in the world will never save them. And by the same token, correct teaching about the gospel is not a guarantee that the person saying the words actually believes them. Someone who gives the gospel accurately yet lives like the devil (Patterson for example, and his horrible and un-Christlike treatment of Klouda) is denying the words by their actions.

You implied in that thread that I, Lydia, etc. are unloving because we hold to the necessity of faith in Jesus for salvation. You have been greatly applauded there for that view. If you consider my behavior there to be harsh and so very wrong, then this is not the place for you. I will never compromise the gospel, and neither will I stop screaming about the Pattersons of the world.

I spoke there of balance but no one heard a thing I said. Love without truth is no better than truth without love. I cannot fathom why this simple thing is so hard to grasp. First there is faith in Jesus alone, and then there must be love.

Acts 4:12, 16:31 Rom. 10:9 1 John 1:6, 2:23, 5:1, 5:12

Debbie Kaufman

Paula: He has said Christ alone. He has preached Christ alone. I’m sorry I was so harsh with you in my previous comment, but it maddens me that you aren’t listening.

Whose truth? Yours? No one including Wade believes or has said Mormons are Christians. They are not. Wade does not believe they are. He is my minister and has been for over 17 years. I know of what I speak. As for Southern Baptists, you still have not answered whether you are SB or not. I assume not, and that doesn’t matter, other than we are far from dead, in fact God is doing something mighty among all Christians and that includes SBs. We are not perfect, but we do want God to do a work us. He is answering that prayer.

A good read is Alan Knox today. Using scripture he shows why we should not separate because of wrong theology from other Christians. I disagree with everything you write on your blog Paula, does that mean we should separate? Does that mean I am not a Christian? It’s either Christ alone or it isn’t. It’s Christ plus correct theology. Which is it people?

Debbie Kaufman

Paula: I have stayed silent up until now but what you have said here is not true. That would be a lie.

Are you Southern Baptist? If not that would explain why you have no idea what you are talking about. We aren’t even close to falling apart and because we are Biblical people, we are attempting to stay with what scripture teaches.

Now you are talking from both sides of your mouth. You say that folks should be able to disagree. Yet when they disagree with you, you write anti-Calvinist posts and now these latest comments. So which is it Paula?

Lydia

Paula, I cannot agree more. Love without truth is no better than truth without love.

I am having a hard time with what is happening over at Wade’s blog. These are 2 diametrically opposed thoughts:

I am a Christian Mormons are Christians

And to try and achieve unity based on 2 diametrically opposed thoughts in Christendom should be impossible. It should be something the Holy Spirit will not allow us to do. Mormons are lost. We should love them enough to proclaim Christ to them.

This is not even about Carter for me. Yes, I disagree with him politically but I was also outspoken when Billy Graham made the statement that someone could be saved and not know Jesus Christ. He really did say that. Not once but twice.

Christendom is losing its mind and accepting another Gospel all in the name of "love". Except is it NOT love for Christ. Just man.

Galatians 1

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Paula Fether

Debbie,

I did not lie. Wade was asked pointedly what it takes to be saved and he has refused to say Jesus ALONE. And you can think what you want about the SBC, I don’t care. The NT knows nothing of such entities. The only thing that matters is the gospel, and I have not said anything about the ENTIRE SBC but only Wade.

And my views on Calvinism are exactly that -- on CALVINISM. It, Calvinism, is a system, not a person. Are you so intolerant of disagreement that you even have to come here to spew your hatred? Have I chased you into your home to berate you for being a Calvinist?

Get a grip Debbie. And consider your OWN practice of "talking from both sides of your mouth". Remember "off topic" and all that you said about people being harsh? Do you actually think your post here is LOVING?? Please!

Paula Fether

Thank you Lydia, and welcome to my blog. :-)

I too grieve at the state of affairs there. It is absolutely painful to watch.

Lydia

Debbie, you keep running around blogs harping about love while chewing folks out. It really is cognitive dissonance. :o)

The topic here is the dialectic. Can you agree these 2 statements are diametrically opposed based on what scritpure says about WHO Christ is:

I am a Christian Mormons are Christians

?

Paula Fether

Not listening? I know all about people not listening, but I have listened to people trashing the gospel for far too long.

Apology accepted, thank you. But Wade is being evasive; he has yet to say that it is impossible to be saved and remain Mormon. He has yet to say that Jesus is the ONLY way for anyone in the world to be saved.

I WAS SBC. I left it. So don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. And if you had been listening at all, you would know that the bulk of my posting at Wade’s has been about the gospel. Not SBC politics. So tell me Debbie, why did you ASSUME NOT? Because it wouldn’t fit what you’ve already judged me to be? When have I said people have to be perfect?

Wrong theology ABOUT THE GOSPEL is exactly what Christians MUST "divide" over! And if you disagree with EVERYTHING I write, what is your purpose here? It certainly isn’t to show love and tolerance and promote unity. If THE GOSPEL doesn’t divide, it isn’t the gospel. Remember those words of Jesus about "I came not to bring peace but a sword, to divide...?"

Unity can never come at the expense of the gospel. That is what we mean here by "Christ alone". You are confusing "correct theology" with "correct saving gospel". Do you deny that we MUST all believe the same gospel?

Lydia

Debbie, If Carter has said ’Christ Alone’then he cannot believe that Mormons are Christians. Do you see the problem? For some reason, you guys do not think it is a big deal he believes and stated to the world that Mormons are Christians.

It is a mockery of our Lord! And we must divide over it not affirm they are mainstream Christians. Whose next? JW’s are Christians, too?

Why is Carter getting a pass for this? My guess is that Wade is trying to call him now to verify all of this.

I saw this same treatment of Billy Graham when he told Newsweek that one could be saved without knowing Jesus Christ. He got a pass and many did not realize he has said the exact same thing about 10 years earlier on another interview.

When it comes to ppl, women in ministry, communion, etc, I can jaw along. But when it comes down to the very essense of WHO Christ IS and WHAT He did, I cannot play along. It is not loving the Lord my God with all my heart to even ignore that someone says that Mormonism is Christianity. Mormons believe that Jesus is satan’s spiritual brother. Serious, stuff we are ignoring for the sake of ’relationship unity’.

Christiane

There have been strong feelings and beliefs expressed. I know this. But dear people, can we not be peaceful in Him? And for HIM? You are Debbie, and Lydia, and Paula, all so valued for who YOU each are as individuals. But you are also sisters in HIM. You need to be peaceful in His Presence. I say this with great love for all of you. I am sad and I don’t know how to help. Love all of you dearly, L’s

Paula Fether

L’s,

If someone badmouthed my husband right in front of me and I said nothing or remained calm, how would my husband feel? The same way Jesus would feel if someone badmouthed Him right in front of me and I said nothing or remained calm.

To NOT get riled up when Jesus is reduced to A way, A truth, and A life is a slap in His face.

The way to end hostility is to agree that Jesus is the ONLY way, truth, and life, and that no one comes to the Father except through HIM. It is only after that point is reached that we can have peace.

L’s, who exactly is "in Him"?

Lydia

Christiane, you surely would not want us to affirm a slanderous lie about our Savior in the name of false peace? Anything less than contending for the truth of WHO Christ is would be denying Him before men!

It is all about HIS glory, Christiane.

Matthew 10: 32-38

Debbie Kaufman

Paula: Christ alone, means just that. Faith in Christ alone. Not Christ plus right theology. What is your definition of the gospel? To quote Lorraine Boettner, who gives a good definition:

"The Gospel is the good news about the great salvation purchased by Jesus Christ, by which He reconciled sinful men to a holy God."

That is the gospel. You are adding to the qualifications that are not there. Now we learn, grow and learn some more until the day we die. God keeps working in us until death according to Phil. 1:6. But to add to is to add something the Bible nor God himself does.

As for Wade and the SB you are dead wrong. It doesn’t matter that you used to be a SB. You are no longer and we are just out in the open for the world to see our warts and all. It’s changing. God is doing something.

Paula Fether

Faith in Christ ALONE is what I repeated over and over at Wade’s blog. How could you possibly have missed that? And where did I add to that? I might well ask what YOUR definition of the gospel is, since you oppose everything I say.

If the brand of love and tolerance you preach is what you exhibit here, I shudder to think how you treat your worst enemy.

Paula Fether

PS: Anybody who doesn’t know my definition of the gospel has plenty of places here to find it. Just type "salvation" into the search box, or mainly this article and this article.

Lydia

Debbie, You have been avoiding the real problem. And that is Jimmy Carter said that Mormons are Christians. That is the main issue that is being avoided.

So far, we have all agreed on the basics of the Gospel of WHO Christ is and What He did. Paula believes in the essentials and so do I.

How are we adding to the Gospel to say that Mormons are not Christians? How are we adding to the Gospel when we say we are very concerned that a well known professing Christian is telling the world that Mormons are Christians? Are there no qualfications for the Gospel that say NO! Jesus Christ is NOT satans spiritual brother?

We are defending the very basics of the Gospel. And we are defending it from professing Christians!

BTW: Paula has been saying ’Faith in Christ ALONE’. What has been added is works salvation, requirements of false peace, a unity that includes Christians who tell others that Mormons worship the same Savior.

Debbie, this is getting scary. Your focus on unity is at the expense of Jesus Christ and WHO HE IS.

Debbie Kaufman

You and I agree on the truth, what we disagree on is the method. You keep calling Jimmy Carter a professing Christian, and since I wasn’t just born or born again yesterday, that means you are questioning Jimmy Carter’s being a Christian. That is where we have the problem.

And it’s how we give the truth. Do we do it with the angry tone found here? Not according to scripture. There is a difference between Christianity and religion. Be careful you are not falling into religion. 1 Corinthians 13 is clear. You can have all the "truth" in the world, but when you use it as a sword, without love, it means nothing to God. It’s true that relationship means more than theology.

So if my wanting people to be treated kindly and with dignity is scary...good. Because good theology without feeling love toward others is a reason to question your own salvation.

Paula Fether

Debbie, if you want any more of your comments approved, you will have to stop lecturing other people on "love" while exhibiting nothing but condemnation and hate in the process. Your own "angry tone" is negating all your talk about "love".

It is the duty of every believer to "test the spirits" and show enough love for others to make sure they are believers. It is not wrong to question whether someone is saved, but it is wrong to condemn, and condemnation is all you ever seem to do.

Take your own advice, Debbie. Are you exhibiting the love and tolerance you demand of us? No, you are not!

And stop twisting other people’s arguments into your own. It is we who have championed salvation by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE without "religion" and compromise, while you have relentlessly pounded us for this and then tried to confiscate our statements as your own. THAT’s what’s "scary", along with your defending an impossible contradiction (that one can be Christian and call Mormons Christians while knowing they preach a false Jesus). Asking for kindness is NOT what we’re calling "scary", and you know it.

I’ve had enough of this nonsense, Debbie. Stop pelting us with your hatred and twisting everything we say. Did you read the Disclaimer? Put the gun down and try to show that you will do something other than burn straw men.

Last chance, Debbie. I’ve had my fill of your "love" and "dignity".

Lydia

Debbie, perhaps our ’tones’ (all of us) are really pleading a case.

But it is as if you are using a verbal whip to beat ’love and kindness’ into folks. Is this logical? What is your definition of love and kindness? Never questioning a false dictohomy? Such as Mormons are Christians and I am a Christian? That is serious stuff.

Would you question Johnny Hunt’s beliefs if he told the media that Jehovah’s Witnesses are real Christians? I certainly would. Like Hunt, Carter has a national presence and influences many people.

Can you explain to me why Carter believes Mormons can be Christians and that is ok but we are mean for questioning such a thing?

What about Jesus Christ? What about being kind to Him? Is it kind to Him infers He is the Mormon god?

Personally, I have had my fill of celebrity Christians. All of them. From the evil Paige Patterson to the befuddled Jimmy Carter. The damage they can do is enormous. Even the fall out from Billy Graham’s comment that one can be saved without knowing Jesus Christ has had serious implications for many. I have seen that thought expressed on many forums as truth. And of course, since the great Billy Graham said it, it must be truth.

1 Corin 1

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence

Debbie Kaufman

I have looked back over my posts and I do not see where I am angry or using love as a whip. I do see myself pleading with you to look at yourselves.

"I’ve had it with celebrity Christians", "I’ve had my fill of your “love” and “dignity”.

Your argument is with Christ not me. Read 1 John, the book of John. It is filled with references to treating people, all people, with love and dignity. If you would rather war for the sake of theology, then I have to question your salvation according to scripture.

I have not heard Jimmy Carter say that Mormons are Christians. But if he did he is wrong. It doesn’t however make him lost. It makes him wrong. And if you can show me anywhere where Jimmy Carter has ever gotten angry or said an unkind word, I would like you to show me that too because according to scripture(the books I gave) and in Matthew 22:37 along with 552 other passages that deal with love in the Bible, that is an awful lot of scripture to skip.

Debbie Kaufman

I would like to discuss this, but if you are going to limit me, no real discussion can take place. I may not like what someone says on my blog, it may even make me angry, but I have never deleted a comment, because I think it’s important discussion takes place in order to understand each other. It can get heated at times, but that’s OK. The important thing to me is that discussion take place. So you may delete me and refuse to listen to me and I to you. But then we’ll still be in the same place we are now. Which is separated. That is what is wrong today. Those with the power, such as you on your blog want to control the conversation so much as to delete what you don’t like. So we might as well dismiss the passages in scripture we don’t like. My goal with conversation is to unify even if we disagree. To understand better. Not to divide. Shutting off communication divides.

Paula Fether

That’s the problem, Debbie. You don’t see that you are practicing the very things you keep flaming us for. There is no "pleading" but only judging and condemning. But we have in fact pleaded with you to look at yourself.

Even now you try to claim my statement as your own: "your argument is with Christ, not me". How about YOU read scriptures; we’ve posted many that you seem to ignore. It is YOU who engage in war against any who won’t agree with you.

And we continue to ask you how anyone can believe that only the Jesus of the Bible can save while also saying other fake "Jesus’s" can save. That is the question repeatedly put to you, which you repeatedly ignore.

You yourself have "skipped a lot of scripture" Debbie.

Paula Fether

Your second comment came in after I replied, so now I’ll respond to that.

You have not tried to discuss anything at all, Debbie. You have only judged and berated us for the crime of disagreeing with you. You have continued to ignore our points and tried to make many of them your own. This is not discussion on your part.

The reason I won’t let this continue is because others will see your harsh, aggressive tone and pilfering of other people’s arguments and be afraid to post lest you turn on them too. I guard my own home, as opposed to invading other people’s homes as you do and demand they rearrange the furniture to suit you. You will not be permitted to chase other guests away. Clearly, your goal has not been to unite but to destroy.

So in spite of your attempt to wield your own presumed power in my blog, I warn you for the last time that this will not happen. Do you actually deny a homeowner the "power" to protect it?

Call me what you want, I’m not one of your subjects. Slander me wherever you go, but God is watching and keeping account. He will judge between us, not you.

Paula Fether

I’ll tell ya what, Debbie. You can go on blasting me, but I won’t let you do it to others. That way my regular guests will be safe (and I see that two of them have been silent since you showed up) and you can keep venting your spleen with impunity. Deal?

Lydia

"Your argument is with Christ not me"

No Debbie, My argument is with you. That statement is right out of the Landmarker play book.

"If you would rather war for the sake of theology, then I have to question your salvation according to scripture. "

Debbie, Theology is the Study of WHO God is. It is perfect for this discussion because that is the main question being asked. How can Carter say MOrmons are Christians and KNOW WHO the true God is? Is that not Theology?

How can Theology have no place in a discussion with Christians? Are you saying it is unimportant? Can I believe anything and call myself a Christian?

If Carter believes that those who believe Jesus Christ is the spiritual brother of Satan are saved then what is a Christian? What about their eternal life for blaspheming the True God with their comments. Does your love extend that far?

Please, by all means question my salvation. Iron sharpens iron.

Love does cover a mulititude of sins but it will not save those who do not believe in the TRUE Jesus Christ. Love in truth, however, has the chance to guide them to truth.

" Read 1 John, the book of John. It is filled with references to treating people, all people, with love and dignity. If you would rather war for the sake of theology, then I have to question your salvation according to scripture. "

That is my favorite book so referencing it is perfect for this conversation. And it comes back to WHO is the REAL Jesus Christ? The question I have asked all along.

And how is pointing out that the Mormon god is not Jesus Christ and any Christian who thinks a Mormon is following the Jesus Christ of the scriptures may not know the REAL Jesus Christ, is unkind and unloving?

You keep ignoring these points and point fingers we are mean for asking such questions. You are becoming what you seem to despise so much with the Landmarkers.

According to your definitions of love and kindness, Paul was mean and hateful to rebuke Peter publicly for not eating with the Gentiles. That was mean and unkind and Paul was in sin, right? But Paul knew better. He knew that Peter was ’teaching’ another Gospel by his actions. A very dangerous thing for the Body of Christ.

Then we have John being mean for calling out Diotrephes for wanting to be first. Putting it in a letter for all to read for 2000 years. That was unkind and mean, right?

Neither one of the above were promoting a different Jesus than the one revealed in scripture. They were not teaching that one can be a follower of Christ and believe Jesus is the spiriual brother of Satan!

Paul warned us that wolves would come in and preach another Jesus. You want us to ignore that because questioning and disagreeing is not kind.

I am not uncharitable about what has happened to you and others like you. I had much worse done to me in the Name of Jesus. And I did something similar...ran to the opposite camp. But I can promise that the Lord showed me that HE is the one WHO must be Glorified at all costs. You can argue that means we are nice to everyone. But you are re-defining nice as so many do, to the point our niceness denies Christ.

Nice does not mean agreement. Nice does not mean we cannot point out serious error. Nice does not mean we embrace all sorts of bizarre teaching in the name of unity. that is man centered. Not Christ centered. If we cannot agree on the very basics of WHO CHRIST IS and WHAT HE DID as the basis for our unity, then there is no unity. And Carter does not seem to agree on the very basics. Neither does Billy Graham. I really pray both of them will explain their statements and set the record straight. Many tried with Billy Graham but he ignored them.

Are they lost? I do not know. All I know is that what they have told folks must be refuted.

Jesus Christ is exclusive in WHO HE IS. I cannot be flexible on that one.

Debbie, I do not hate you. I can even take a beating remain on good terms. But, I just cannot agree with you.

The balance that is needed is correct theology on the very basics and charity on the other stuff.

Debbie Kaufman

Paula: You are accusing me of the very things you are doing. David Hunt is wrong on what Calvinists believe, so wrong that no bookstore would carry What Love Is This. So wrong that it was out of print for a long time.

It seems as if I am questioning your salvation. I am not, but I am turning the tables. It is amazing to me that you would get all hepped up about someone questioning your salvation, yet you feel free to question others. I am simply confronting you on this and saying that if you are going to follow the Bible, don’t pick and choose. There are over 500 passages in the Bible on love for others. Christ said that loving God with all our heart, soul, and mind, loving others was the most important commandment, yet that is the one that is least practiced by Christians.

If that is something you consider attacking and dividing, it is not me who is dividing. The Bible is less about judging others and more about judging ourselves. What if I am right and you are wrong, how will you answer God when he asks why theology was more important than loving others. Relationship in scripture trumps theology. Christ practiced it, Paul practiced it. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13, Galatians. How does what you are doing and saying stack up to that.

What does 1 John say is the sign of our faith? Love.

Paula Fether

Paula: You are accusing me of the very things you are doing.

Sound familiar? Back atcha, Debbie.

David Hunt is wrong on what Calvinists believe, so wrong that no bookstore would carry What Love Is This. So wrong that it was out of print for a long time

And this has exactly what to do with this topic? Is going off-topic only a problem when someone else does it, especially me?

I am turning the tables.

You sure are. You keep taking my arguments, pretending they’re yours, and thinking I am saying the opposite.

I am simply confronting you

About what, confronting people you think I have no right to confront? Why is it that only you are allowed to confront people? Why isn’t that mean and unloving?

500 passages on love

And zero on truth? Remember what I said about balance before? Or do you now think you’re the one who said that?

it’s not me who’s dividing

Yes, Debbie, it is.

Relationship trumps theology

So you think relationship trumps the gospel then, since you keep calling my statements about the gospel "theology". Does relationship also trump truth?

how does what you’re saying stack up to that?

How does what YOU’RE saying stack up to that?

Lydia

"Relationship in scripture trumps theology"

Debbie, are your comments an example of trying to have a ’relationship’ with us?

Debbie Kaufman

Let me ask you something. What would you think of a family who goes into a restaurant, gives the waitress a hard time, barely leaves a tip, in fact they leave a tract for a tip, and yet they prayed before they ate.

You have shown no proof that Jimmy Carter actually said this. If there is no proof it is a rumor used to hurt and tarnish another Christian that you do not like or agree with. If it is true, he should be corrected with love, but his Christianity should not be questioned as he told Wade and others privately as well as on the tape that Wade offered up and which is being obviously ignored, that faith in Christ alone was need for salvation. It’s plainly said. Yet you still insist on his saying the opposite.

Also what is truth. Your truth? OR the Biblical truth. Calvinism for example is slammed as heresy without anything to back it up but lies told by David Hunter. Yet to prove your point and to destroy you believe them. Why should you be different here?

That’s how it is with theology only and no love shown.

I admittedly have an easier time loving non-Christians than I do Christians with the warrior type of attitude. I use Calvinism and your posts as another display of the intolerance that you constantly say that others have toward you. You are no different than the ones you accuse.

Lydia: Am I establishing a relationship here? No. Frankly it’s the intolerant, the ones with no love, who put truth before relationship that I do tend to separate myself from. I’m simply wanting the church(and you guys would be part of the church) to change. I also wouldn’t have said a word but Paula did lie about Wade and Southern Baptists no matter her denial to the contrary. To print something that contains no truth is a lie. I attempted to correct that lie.

Paula Fether

"Correct with love" is something you preach but don’t practice, Debbie. You ignore everything we say except to take what you like and pretend it was your argument all along.

But reasoning with you is impossible, so from now on I’m just going to let you vent. It clearly hasn’t mattered what anyone says, you’re here to conduct the whole "conversation" yourself.

Let me again assure anyone reading that if you feel threatened by Debbie don’t hesitate to let me know.

Debbie Kaufman

Paula: You did hit on an important thing. Both love and faith are needed. One cannot be without the other. Love without faith is sloppy. It falls for anything. I am not advocating that you agree with Jimmy Carter, just that you temper the anger. There is a lot of unkind things that you said regarding Calvinism. Jimmy Carter. Wade. Even me. It’s not Biblical. You complain that others show you no grace in disagreements, but it’s because you show no grace.

If you will watch the video Wade offered up Jimmy Carter plainly states the plan of salvation. Many have questioned L’s Christianity because she is RCC, yet she has repeatedly shown more grace than her accusers. She has articulated the gospel clearly. She is still questioned. I do not. I believe her to have had faith in Christ alone and I believe she is born again. Faith without love is rigid, mean,and unkind. We cannot say that we believe in Christ and treat people unkindly. Not unbelievers, not liberals, not moderates, no one. On the other hand love can’t be selective. That is Paul’s message in 1 Corinthians 14.

Debbie Kaufman

Let me again assure anyone reading that if you feel threatened by Debbie don’t hesitate to let me know.

That is so over the top, into the land of falsehood, that my mouth is dropped,and that doesn’t happen very often. I tell you what Paula, you continue your tirade. My reputation isn’t worth being trashed by garbage statements such as this.

Lydia

Debbie, He made the statement in a Newsweek article several years ago. The link to the article is broken. (It is very hard to get to old archived articles)

But if you google it, there are many LDS sites praising him for his words about Mormons being Christians. There is also another reference in a teleconference back in 1997.

Debbie, could it be that you have made a bit of a mountain out of the mole hill? Ask yourself if you would be this angry over my disagreeing with what Paige Patterson teaches?

And just for grins, keep in mind, the shock I felt when L’s said those of us who said what we did about MOrmons not being Christians said we were hateful and ’stoning’ them. I am so glad she later apologized but it was a bit shocking. After all, Mormons do not believe in the true Jesus Christ. That is a fact. A truth. It is not unkind to speak a truth. Especially when it is refuting a lie about our Savior.

Even you, Debbie, agree that Mormons are not Christians. Right?

What is so unkind about standing up for the REAL Jesus Christ? If that is unkind, you can rest assured of never being persecuted. :o)

Btw: Paula knows that I subscribe to the Doctrines of Grace. More of a 3-4 pointer. She has her opinion, I have mine. I respect hers, she respects mine even though she tries to goad me out of it. :o)

I enjoyed reading over some of her debate critque. I did not feel insulted or threatened by it. But then, I enjoy reading both sides on that issue. I am mor in line with Spurgeon than Calvin, I think.

Paula Fether

Tanx Lydia. :-)

Re Calvinism, I think people should be free to speak in their own home, but even then to avoid trashing the people who disagree while trashing the argument. ;-) And that is the essence of Rom. 14 and more, where believers hold to the essentials without shame but cut people slack over the "disputable matters".

Paul spent considerable time exposing false teachers, naming them so that other congregations would know who to be wary of. It is following his example to expose such teachers today, remembering that it is the gospel and precious souls that are at stake.

On the other end of the spectrum we read in the NT of the "fruit of the Spirit", and understand that no one should be considered spiritually mature without it. That is the balance, "spirit and truth", with "truth" being the gospel essentials (Jesus alone, no other way to be saved, cannot be mixed with error) and exhibiting love and kindness out of gratitude for our restored relationship with God through Jesus.

I enjoy a spirited debate on ideas but don’t judge and condemn the people who hold them. I agree totally, Lydia, that it is of the utmost importance that we guard the gospel against the slightest compromise or ambiguity, and demand that those with influence be precise when they say they are Christians.

But I’ll be the first to admit that attacks on Jesus make my blood boil, especially when they come from professing believers. And a great weakness of mine is remaining calm when people demand something of me that they themselves do not practice. I know I need to work on controlling my responses in that regard, and don’t claim to be anywhere near perfect.

Words of a Fether » Blog Archive » Changelings

[...] similar quote from Tony Campolo demonstrates exactly what I wrote about recently concerning the Hegelian dialectic and mysticism, revealing a pattern of pushing contradictory [...]

Dee

Hi Paula

Just spending some more time reading your archives.

Re Calvinism,I think people should be free to speak in their own home, but even then to avoid trashing the people who disagree while trashing the argument. ;-) And that is the essence of Rom. 14 and more, where believers hold to the essentials without shame but cut people slack over the “disputable matters”.

Paula,i am not a Trinitarian.This has nothing at all to do with Jesus.I know he is God and the Son of God.I do believe that in God’s plan of salvation their is the Father,the Son and the Spirit.My question to you is this,do you consider belief in the trinity(three persons)in one God,is an essential doctrine or can it be considered a disputable matter?

That i do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person or entity like the Father and the Son,but is the means by which the Father and the Son make their home within us John 14:23...

That i do believe that it is by God’s Spirit that all people are drawn to Jesus.That only those who do not resist the Spirit of Grace and truth can believe the Gospel.I believe that it is by the Spirit of God,we are convicted of sin,righteousness and judgment. That we are regenerated and sealed by the Spirit when we trust Jesus for salvation-Ephesians 1:12-14...I know very well that Jesus himself,called the Spirit "he"...That the Spirit can be grieved.

Still,i read the scriptures and believe that God is the Father of Jesus,yet i do not see it good that i should believe that Jesus was conceived/placed in Mary’s womb by a third entity or person of a trinity.Rather that Jesus was conceived/placed by the breath/wind,the force that is life,proceeding from God the Father...Moreover the scriptures teach that the same Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ-Romans 8:9.The scripture teach that it was the Spirit of Him(God)that Jesus was raised from the dead.That by the same Spirit that dwells in us,our mortal bodies are/will be changed/quickened-Romans 8:11...

Paula i am not looking to for answers or the means to understand this mystery that the majority of believers hold...I just want to know if you think that belief(not understanding)of a/the trinity,is an essential teaching for believers in Christ...

Thank you.

Paula Fether

Hi Dee,

One thing I always try to do is emphasize the difference between the essentials of the gospel and "disputable matters". While I would call belief in the Trinity consistent, I wouldn’t call it essential, since the gospel is "faith alone in Christ alone". If everybody kept this central, essential fact in mind, there’d be far fewer sects and denominations.

I do have an article on the Trinity if you’re interested.

Hope that helps! :-)

Dee

Thank you Paula,and for the article on the Trinity.Faith and trust in Christ alone and believing in the one who sent him are indeed central and essential.John 5:24 :-)

Dee

Hi again Paula

There was something that i wanted to clarify in your article on the Trinity...The portion a ’A point in time’...Do i understand that you do not insist that Jesus is/was eternally the Son of God? In that you take Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 literally? Acts 13:33 is a reference to Psalm 2:7,however,that particular passage in Acts speaks of Jesus’ resurrection...My only question is what to do with the last clause of Hebrews 1:2,does this in fact speak of eternity past?

By whom he also made the ages.Worlds in the KJV...

What are your thoughts on the last clause of Hebrews 1:2 or perhaps,i should read your article again :-)

Paula Fether

Yes, I believe that though Jesus has always existed as a "person" of God, he was not always in a father/son kind of relationship. And though the nature of God is notoriously difficult to describe, seeing that we are really incapable of grasping it, I will try to clarify my view.

Though the Psalms are not primarily doctrinal, we see the NT writers referring to Ps. 2:7 as telling us something about God’s nature or being, just as we see much of in almost all the Psalms. But we also see how Jesus, throughout his earthly ministry, referred to himself as a son, both of humanity and of God. So the challenge for us is to try and see whether any given reference to this "sonship" refers to Jesus’ divinity or humanity, and it isn’t easy.

Yet as I argued in the Trinity document, no matter which kind of "son" we’re thinking of, it cannot be a quality of eternity past, for a son must always come at a later point in time that his father. Acts 13:33 does indeed come in the context of Jesus’ resurrection, and Heb. 1:2 does speak of the eternal nature of Jesus, but "Son of God" is a title by which we refer to Him now, His followers referred to Him before His death and resurrection, and the Psalmist referred to Him prophetically.

For example, many celebrities are known by their screen names, yet we use that name to refer to them even if we’re talking about a time before they were celebrities. And in the scriptures, I see the names God uses as more related to the epoch in human history than some changing quality in God. That is, God’s names have to do with how He is relating to people at a given time (or has related to them in the past), rather than a change in His being.

So when the NT writers refer to Jesus as the Son of God, they can call Him this even when referring to eternity past, because God Himself never changes, though His ways of relating to us do. Note that in Isaiah 9:6, the Child has several names or titles: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Surely the fact that Jesus is now also called Son of God doesn’t mean we can no longer call Him Prince of Peace or Everlasting Father.

So I guess what I’m trying to explain is that Jesus, no matter what we call Him, is eternally divine but became human at a point in time. One is a child when born, not when they die. So even though Acts 13:33 is in a discussion of the Resurrection, Jesus’ "Son" title could not refer to that point in time, because He was called the Son of God many times before this event.

Hope that (somehow) helps! :-)

Dee

Excellent,Excellent,Excellent! Thank you :-) Indeed,truth fears no examination,Paula...

Man Alive! Let me know when and in what church your are going to preach in.I am not kidding...

Paula Fether

Aw, tanx Dee! :-)

But you know, most churches wouldn’t have me, and the ones that would wouldn’t like what I’d say about certain topics. I’m only a virtual preacher. :-P

Dee

So you’ll need a virtual congregation then? I’m in! ;-).Pray about Podcasting...

Paula Fether

Hm, something to consider. But it’ll have to wait for a good hair day. ;-)

Dee

Hair day Paula??? Not to worry...

That why the minz invented hats to ’cover’ our heads :-D

Paula Fether

But of course!

Yet God is obviously punishing me, for I have the sewing skill of a goldfish and cannot make any hats or prairie dresses. So I’d need another woman as my clothing-care provider, which would make her my boss, who would thereby be trying to usurp the headship of my husband-- who can sew better than I can. And then the "Christian Talmud" would have to be consulted on how to clean up this theological mess. :-P

Dee

Funny too! That is it Paula you are to much... :-D

Paula Fether

Got a podcast site started, stay tuned!

my podcast site

Now all I need are some pods. ;-)

Dee

Wow this is Great! Your’e an awesome lady indeed...

How about a Podcast on the Sonship of Jesus and something on plain sense reading of certain texts...Then roll it in with your superb post " Sound Familiar"...

Paula Fether

Tanx Dee! :-)

I’ll certainly have a lot of topics to pick from, thanks for the idea. I’m also considering a series that could be used to take a new believer through all the basics, which of course would include the misuse of scripture.

I’m feeling drawn toward starting with a look at salvation, from Acts through the Letters.

Dee

All sounds Great Paula... I will be looking forward to listening and learning from these topics.

Have a great evening :-)